Wednesday, October 30, 2013

Crime Versus Sin–Does Paige Patterson know the difference?

2 comments Posted by Hannah at 4:15 PM

Paige Patterson Photo
There's no room in the church for whistleblowers – Paige Patterson

Paige Patterson started his sermon with 1 Corinthians 6.  His main message was that you and I do not bring sin of the church out into the open so the media – or law enforcement – might judge it. 

His message is called, So You Believe in the inerrancy of God’s word…well Bully for YOU!

Inerrancy, simplistically is basically the bible is accurate and completely free from error.  I linked to a urban dictionary so you can see what is meant by Bully for YOU.  I think in this case it’s basically saying GOOD for you with sarcasm.

Paige then goes into a lesson about why you should bring matters to the church, and not the media and as he also stated….law enforcement. 

Funny thing is if humans in history had followed this belief system that even if the church is wrong?  You need to ROLL with it?  No one would have broke off from the main church back in history, and we wouldn’t have different denominations today. 

All the theologians we like to read about, or love to death?  For example, Luther, Calvin, Wesley and many others?  They would be non existent, and we would still be under the rule of a cruel religious system.

church tortureRemember the history that when individuals tried to take things to the church the church ran right over them.  They tortured people, and killed them.  This was ‘church business’, and they shut you down with the threat of their power.

Sadly, it seems the church trying a different tactic.  They can’t use the torture method of the past, but they will use lies and propaganda instead.

History is repeating itself, and the means maybe different….yet the message is the same.

No matter what ….. keep it in the church!

Morality of Knowing the difference between Sin and Crime

To me it seems these church leaders with all their education, study, and knowledge still don’t seem to grasp the difference between CRIME and SIN.  I’m speaking more on a morality principal here.  Crime is sin of course, but not every sin is crime as in police involvement, etc.

People LOVE to use the sexual abuse cover-up of the Catholic church against them for a host of reasons, and that circumstance does show they also didn’t view crime and sin properly at that time. 

The Catholic hierarchy had the notion that child rape was a sin rather than a crime. Hence the emphasis on forgiveness, therapy, repentance - rather than removal, prosecution and investigation. Obviously, there's one reason for this: they were defending the reputation of the church by hiding its darkest secrets, and they were using the authority of religion to do so.

Faith organizations outside the Catholic Church do this as well, and they see it as somewhat different FOR THEM.  I guess they feel they can do it ‘better’ or something.  Yet, in most cases they do this for the same reasons:  hiding its darkest secrets, and they are using the authority of religion to do so.

Now, I think we all realize there are certain circumstances that can be dealt with in the church.  It’s the same with the personnel issues with the staff.  Not every single item needs to be out in the open.  Its better to handle gossip about members, or personnel issues like tardiness within the church.  When aspects grow beyond the garden variety sins?  They can be crimes, and no where in the bible will you find that we are NOT to take that to police. 

Paige Patterson missed one KEY word in scripture he presented.  That word ‘trivial’.  How he could have missed it?

Trivial Matter or Not so Trivial…that is the question!

What would take for YOU to sue this institution if you worked for it? Paige Patterson asked an attorney that was applying for a job there – around 3:20 mark.  The attorney stated it would have to be a circumstance in which his rights were seriously abused, and he was asked to give some examples. 

Patterson asked him if those circumstances were in the bible, and the attorney stated he did not believe so.  To which Paige Patterson giggled that he was NOT in the employment of this organization.  To Paige this is common, because we live in a world of accusations.

Now my first thought was an attorney working with Paige Patterson isn’t going to bring a lawsuit against the organization over ‘accusations’.  I mean lawyers realize you need more than that to do anything about it. 

We also need to remember that in the past the church had the power to take the law into their own hands, and hand down punishment, judgment, etc. The church today can’t send someone to the RACK, or cut out their tongue and all those torture techniques anymore.  WELL at least in most countries today.

You do find in most cases when an individual or groups of individuals bring the court or the media to the attention of the church?  Its habitual criminal or unethical behavior.

church torture sceneWe aren’t speaking of just plain sin here, but crime!

2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels?

Now you notice in the above the scripture mentions ‘trivial’ cases.  Rape is not trivial, and child rape is certainly not either.  The habitual covering up abuse cases isn’t trivial.  Its not only sin, but a crime. 

Folks if you are going to judge angels, and if you are going to judge the world don’t you think you can handle the same problems that happen in the Church of God?  - Paige Patterson
5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?

Next, Paige goes into hinting at circumstances are well beyond what you would consider ‘trivial’ cases.  This is where they attempt to melt the trivial with the not trivial issues. 

Its where the church gets themselves into trouble, because they do have a moral obligation to report crime!   See below:

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, (14) or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

Yet, they feel their reputation would be stained.  How little faith is my first thought.  Sure, you may struggle because of the crime for a period.  God will bless you for doing what is right, and his will – NOT OURS – be done!

I offer a different scripture that speaks to the spirit of the discussion:

1 Timothy 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
(9) We also know that the law is not made for the righteous but for the law breakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
(10) for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers - and for whatever is contrary to the sound doctrine
(11) that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Accept Injustices because God told you TOO!

Paige Patterson states that people just want to go to the law, because they feel that the church FAILED them in the judgment process.   They don’t feel justice has been served.

Why don’t you learn to just accept WRONG!  Learn to accept INjustice!  You say its no in my basic makeup to do that!  You know I’m an Irish Texan so lets FIGHT!   (giggles from audience)  But is what God’s word demands.  Why is that? Why would God say, “Why don’t you just accept wrong?”  Why would he ask you to do that?  WELL that all depends on your viewpoint of God!   If in your mind and heart God is a JUST GOD that settles the issue Folks!

What that means is God eventually sets everything right.  If you are wronged?  Somewhere down the line God sets it right!  Well you say, “Well he is to slow!” NOOO!  He is right on time.  When it needs to happen he will set it right.  Than you say, “ I’m dying and he still hasn’t set it right!”  No one said he will could set it right in this life! – Paige Patterson

What Paige needs to think about is if God feels there is sin in the church that needs to come into the light?  He also will use his means to do it, and yes today that could very well be the media and the police. 

No doubt the church may get it wrong from time to time on trivial matters.  Yet, when its not the trivial matters and God is using the media or police?  You also need to accept God’s decision. 

church sexual abuseSadly, Paige Patterson seems to feel you are sinning against the church instead.  The ‘crime’ against him is more important than the crime against society.  No human is that important.

Again there is a BIG difference between SIN and CRIME!  In the bible we read about punishments that people had to endure because of the crimes they committed, and the church sanctioned those punishments.    The bible is full of stories of how people were punished for crimes during that period of history (Exodus has plenty of examples), and how many struggled with their sin (David, for example).

We also have examples later on in church history where the church used its powers to commit injustices….because they had the power to do so.    That’s where the breaks from the church started, and the injustices of the church were the reason.

If what he states is true?  We would only have ONE church, and not all these different denominations.  Chances are Paige would NOT be in his position at the Seminary, because we may still be under rule of the Catholic Church.

Paige also feels people to just accept things as the people in leadership tell you to, and if its not right God will handle them.  You may not see justice, but God will handle that in his own time.  He may not show you his justice, because chances are you would ‘gloat’ about it anyway.  He seems to feel that justice – that you could see -  may damage your walk in faith. 

Yes, he lays it on THICK doesn’t he?

You don’t take matters to the PRESS!

Paige Patterson next decided he would play God, and mention he will ‘expand’ on this scripture of 1 Corinthians 6.   You don’t take matters to the media!

“If I had fifty dollars for every time that I have told somebody from the press: ‘I’m not going to comment on that because, frankly, it’s none of your business; it’s the church of God’ — if I had fifty dollars for every time I’ve done that, this would be a wealthy institution and you wouldn’t have to pay any tuition at all,” he said.
“I’m not going to talk to the press about things that are matters internal to the church of the Living God,” Patterson said. “It is none of their business. And they can’t possibly get it right, and they don’t get it right, so why do you take it to the world of unbelief? Whether that be the court, whether that be the press? ‘Well there’s just no other way to handle it.’ Yes there is. Commit it to the Lord God Almighty.”

Church history shows that the church doesn’t always get things right, and people have gone OUTSIDE the church….or tore off a piece to make a new church due to what Paige feel is ‘matters internal to the church of the living God’.

If we take this stern approach?  All other denominations have their foundation firmly planted in SIN!  How does he live with that reality?  He doesn’t, and no doubt would think that concept is a joke.  Yet, that would mean at times it is OKAY to go outside the church with matter beyond ‘trivial’.  Yes?

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[b] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practise homosexuality,[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

…and IF you suffer for it. and IF you were misused! And IF you were abused, and if you are not represented properly!  Its Okay.  You can trust it (pointing up) to God who judges justly.  May God grant that we do that. – Paige Patterson

Then he finishes with a prayer:
…That we won’t take our troubles to the press.  That we won’t take out troubles to the government. That we won’t take our troubles anywhere except to the people of God, and beyond that to the Lord Jesus.  And may we as a result present to the Lord Jesus upon his return  a beautifully adorned Bride – the bride of Christ – Holy and Pure upon him.  In Jesus name we pray.  Amen.

When Pastor’s manipulate scripture in this manner their integrity comes into question.   They pretend there is no difference between sin and crime.  They do this to protect themselves, and they feel the reputation of the church.  God doesn’t need their protection, because he is MORE than capable of taking care of it himself.

Let’s be honest with ourselves here!  Paige Patterson is more concerned with HIS reputation, and his post of power.  If he isn’t doing anything immoral or illegal?  He doesn’t need to tell the press that church business its none of their business when they come to him with questions about his conduct.  He should have nothing to hide.  If he is doing nothing wrong?  He should have enough faith to know that God will protect him, and hand out justice as he sees fit.

Cindy Kunsman today wrote an article about Hana Williams today.  The Christian parents that beat her, and starved her to death were sentenced in court this week for their punishment.  The father got 27 years, and the mother received 37 years.  Their actions were sin of course, but thankfully people knew their was also a crime that needed punishment for the good of society.

Yes, it was okay to take those troubles to the court.  There was nothing sinful about it.

When will we – the Body of Christ – demand our teachers of the church use discernment to know the difference between ‘trivial’ sins and crimes against society?  Paige Patterson’s lesson shows clearly how they don’t have a clue.

So You Believe in the inerrancy of God’s word …..Well Bully for YOU! just remember the word ‘trivial’ is there!

Exodus 23:1 Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a false witness.
(2) Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd,
(3) and do not show favoritism to a poor man in his lawsuit.
(4) If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to take it back to him.
(5) If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help him with it.
(6) Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits.
(7) Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.
(8) Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the righteous.
(9) Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you where aliens in Egypt.

Additional Reading:

Why Paige Patterson's anti-outsider stance is wrong
And what about Patterson’s insistence that his anti-outsider stance is somehow biblical? If Patterson needs a biblical basis for doing what's right, then he should look to the first thing listed by the prophet Micah. “And what does God require of you? To act justly . . . .” (Micah 6:8)
Advocate says SBC leader gives bad advice
He said if law enforcement does not or cannot act to protect children “whistleblowers in churches should call journalists.”
“More wrongdoing in churches needs to be reported more often to more people who are more apt to stop it and prevent future wrongdoing,” Clohessy said.
“We hope every Baptist rejects this self-serving, unhealthy and often dangerous advice, especially when it comes to sexual and financial crimes, whether known or suspected,” he said.

Paige Patterson (SBC) Advice to Victims of Domestic Violence
Audio of Patterson telling the abuse victim to go home and pray for her spouse.
“I had a woman who was in a church that I served, and she was being subject to some abuse, and I told her, I said, “All right, what I want you to do is, every evening I want you to get down by your bed just as he goes to sleep, get down by the bed, and when you think he’s just about asleep, you just pray and ask God to intervene, not out loud, quietly,” but I said, “You just pray there.”  And I said, “Get ready because he may get a little more violent, you know, when he discovers this.”  And sure enough, he did.  She came to church one morning with both eyes black.  And she was angry at me and at God and the world, for that matter.  And she said, “I hope you’re happy.”  And I said, “Yes ma’am, I am.”  And I said, “I’m sorry about that, but I’m very happy."

Saturday, October 19, 2013

Act Like "Gentle" Men PLEASE!

0 comments Posted by Hannah at 3:16 PM

Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Join the Church and Get a Set of Knifes

Well it seems we had two popular ‘conferences’ to choose from in California this week. 


Pastor John MacArthur has his Strange Fire Conference.


Strange Fire is a conference that will set forth what the Bible really says about the Holy Spirit, and how that squares with the charismatic movement. We’re going to address in a biblical, straightforward manner what many today see as a peripheral issue. On the contrary, your view of the Holy Spirit influences your relationship with God, your personal holiness, and your commitment to the church and evangelism.


Then you have the Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald running their “Act Like Men” Conference.


Men who are loud and ruthless about their own sin, but patient and full of grace in leading others. Men who long to follow God without limits and meet the needs of those around them without hesitation.

To get there we need radical surgery. It's time to cut deep and get it all, and not be afraid of what that means. We challenge you to join thousands of men for a two-day conference this fall-to step up with us and Act Like Men.


What happened to acting like GENTLE men?


We have seen in the past when one pastor’s don’t like something another pastor believes, preaches, teaches, etc.  They can be either a gentleman about it, or sadly as we have what we have  seen this week – a petulant child.  Mark Driscoll gets the petulant child award this week!


No doubt neither of them agreed with the ‘others’ message this week, but holy mackerel you would think some could ‘act’ the role they get paid for.  You know – pastor, teacher, leader, etc?!


Mark Driscoll’s behavior to me doesn’t show other’s how to ‘Act Like Men’.  He tweets ahead of time that he planned to go to John MacArthur’s event to ‘hand out his newest book’ which doesn’t agree with the MacArthur’s main message for his conference.


Yes, we know that celebrities at times ‘tweet’ that they will be places where others can meet them.  Pastor’s tweeting that they plan to come to the opposing event to hand out his books ‘opposing’ message?  That’s not my vision of someone that wants others to ‘Act Like Men’.  Establishments normally welcome celebrities and ‘twitter’ followers because it helps their bottom line, and gives them promotion.


Some how I don’t think The Strange Fire Conference took it that way.  It doesn’t take ‘discernment’ to figure out WHY either!


As most of us know – or could understand if you didn’t – vendors are normally vetted at these events.  The approved vendors then can hand out their literature, and sell their wears, etc.  This is pretty common practice for a host of reasons.


I guess Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald decided to ‘Act Like Men’ and crash the event to hand out Mark’s latest book  - and of course ‘autograph’ them if need be.  They were approached, and asked to stop.  Security it seems offered to walk him and his books back to his car.  Yes, the vendor ‘vetting’ portion that no doubt Driscoll and MacDonald knew  about – as I’m sure they have the same process – was explained to them.


To me, I can understand you being offended by the MacArthur’s conferences message.  People do that have right, and you can ‘agree’ with MacArthur’s view as well.  Different belief systems aren’t going away anytime SOON!  For me personally? I think they are both a bit screwy!


Crashing an event like this is not what a gentleman would do.  You don’t ‘tweet’ your maybe arrival if you have time, and act like WILL wonders ever cease  - when asked to leave due to actions you KNEW would push buttons. 


(giggles) I mean can you imagine what the response would be if a feminist group or gay pride group showed up at the ‘Act Like Men’ conference?  Yikers! 


James MacDonald didn’t like how some people showed up at his event – and they paid for the tickets and travel – only to be escorted out, and threatened with arrest.   Yet, Mature and Acting Like Men MacDonald and Driscoll didn’t see a problem crashing someone else’s event while NOT paying for the tickets and travel.  Okay then.  They can pick and choose who is at their event, and BE MEN while crashing someone else’s.  Sigh.


Yes, Driscoll acted as if he showed up to ‘bless them’ with his new book.  (Yeah right!) They were his GIFT to them, and he showed up with boxes FULL of them.  When he was finally escorted to his car?  Mark Driscoll to let everyone know that the books were a ‘gift’ to the church location where the event was taking place.


Next thing you know he wanted to show others how to ‘Act Like Men’ once again, and tweets that security at the event confiscated his books.  I guess he missed the part that plenty of others were around when he announced ‘his gift’, and they were rather upset when they were accused of ‘confiscation’ instead.  Check out the screen shot of responses on Twitter over that:  Driscoll Claims Confiscation of his Books


Yep, they know how to Act Like Men don’t they? NOT!


That Strange Fire he felt was NOT the symbol of Real Men.  Teenage boys going out to crash a party MAYBE …. but then most of those boys GROW UP! 


Comment I had to smile at: Sort of funny, really to watch this…. They both agree that the earth is flat, but can’t agree on whether it rests on the backs of seven elephants, or an endless stack of turtles. Utterly delusional. Both.


Mark Driscoll 'Crashes' John MacArthur's Strange Fire Conference? (PHOTOS)


Mike Riccardi, the local outreach pastor at Grace Community Church Speaks of what he saw

Friday, October 11, 2013

People need hope. Not an English Comprehension Lesson.

0 comments Posted by Hannah at 10:14 AM

It is these pearls that I encounter each time I dive below, into the dark and lonely cesspools of Christendom.  They’ve been left for dead by much of the Church, yet they are the first to expend of themselves in pursuing and loving other hurting souls.  Their own cries have been ignored, but they’re the first to listen to the cries of those around them.  Though the commitment of the Church to abuse survivors is often self-centered and short-lived, the commitment these survivors demonstrate to each other is usually selfless and lifelong.   - Boz Tchividjian

Joe Carter is one of the newer employee’s of the Gospel Coalition. He recently wrote an article that is leaving a bad taste in many mouths (Figure of speech Joe – Wink! Wink!).
It starts by:

For years it was merely an overused rhetorical trope, a hyperbolic claim that Taking languange Literally Cartoon
followed a predictable pattern:

Step 1: Take an issue of concern for Christians (e.g., abortion, sex trafficking, global persecution, the gospel).

Step 2: Claim that no one in our churches is talking about the issue.
Step 3: Assume the dual role of educator and Old Testament prophet by explaining why the issue matters and why the church must stand up and speak out about it.
I read Boz’s opinion of victims speaking out about injustices they see in the church, and then Joe Carter shows the clear attitude they tend to be faced with presently. There is no hope there – something they clearly need – and he wants people to have a comprehension lesson for English.
It breaks your heart. One wishes to try to reach people where they are, and the other feels it’s a fun game to mock them into silence.
His technique is familiar to me! We have seen such pettiness before.   Remember this article?

Should we be saying, “The Church Hurt Me
”?  Let’s review the logic they were attempting to ‘teach’ you with this article:

The person could mean the big-C Church has hurt them–all Christians everywhere. That sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it? But think about it. When a person says “The church has hurt me” and they’re refusing to visit or join any local congregation of believers they have practically projected their hurt onto the entire universal body of Christ! They have assigned their offense to every possible Christian and Christian congregation imaginable. Practically, their distrust has reached universal proportions. In every case this is false. We might provide some of our best care by helping our friends recognize the practical universalism in some of their reactions. Hopefully we can get them to dial it down to the next possible level.
Can we say this is a TAD bit over the TOP? They may provide their best care recognizing a common form of speech isn’t to be taken so literally.   Talking down to a hurting person isn’t going to help your case.  You do want to reach them right?
This form of ‘emotional’ dribble maybe taken as mocking them, and you won’t get to far.
Let’s imagine a young person coming to them for counsel, because they were abused in the past in the church. Empathy, and a listening ear should come first.

Sadly, it seems being petty about the phrase they used would be given first. Do they really expect this person to trust them, or even truly finish what they have to say after that? Can we use a bit of common sense for goodness sakes!
Well it seems that Joe Carter decided to take the same route, and ignored the context – and then took it a tab bit over top once again.
Janet Mefferd Quoted the issue in a nutshell:
Carter thinks that if you say, “No one in the church is talking about (an issue).”you’re “slandering Christ’s bride” because you can’t know what every individual human in every church is saying. Fine, but that’s not the sense of the term “no one” when used in that context.
It reminds me of a time when my son was little and I said to him,
“Son! Its time to go we need to put our shoes on!”
Son says, “These aren’t shoes MOM their Sandals!”
Yes, my son ignored the context of my statement. At my son’s age when this statement was made? It made sense to him that it was TRULY was a hill worth dying on!
Yes, he was in that kind of mood. He was going to ‘show me’ that SANDALS was the more proper way of stating my request! The fact that sandals are in fact shoes? Made no difference to him. Yes, he could be a frustrating child at times. (giggles) Thankfully, he grew out of that!
Now I feel I’m back in my child’s toddler years, and I’m suppose to ‘acknowledge’ since you haven’t spoke to every human in every church you can’t know that ‘no one’ is talking about some subject. Is the man freaking serious? Grow UP already!
Why this is so important is beyond me, because not stating it HIS way truly isn’t ‘slandering the Bride of Christ’ by any stretch of the imagination.

I can’t believe he is that ignorant that he can’t grasp the intent of those words. What can I assume? The poor man isn’t going to get to far in ministry if he can’t reach people where they are – like Jesus did.

One aspect that came up between a twitter war between Joe Carter and Janet Mefferd was about a statement that Boz said.

While comparing evangelicals to Catholics on abuse response, ”I think we are worse,” he said at the Religion Newswriters Association conference, saying too many evangelicals had “sacrificed the souls” of young victims.
Child Sexual Abuse

My Friend – Danni Moss – Who’s blog her family left up after she passed away?  She has an article on there about the growing numbers of sexual abuse in churches.  Her source?  The churches insurance companies:

The Associated Press reported recently that three insurance companies receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by Protestant clergy, challenging the assumption that clergy sexual abuse is an exclusively Catholic problem that does not take place in other churches.
That is a higher number than the annual average of 228 “credible accusations” brought against Catholic clerics in records reported by the Catholic Church in response to media scrutiny, a priest observed in a Fox News commentary questioning why the story isn’t garnering more attention.
While the report about abuse in Protestant churches doesn’t absolve guilty Catholic priests or those who enabled them, said Father Jonathan Morris, it offers a more complete picture. “The problem of sexual abuse has no denominational boundaries,” he wrote.
The AP obtained figures on sex-abuse claims from three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America–Church Mutual Insurance Company,  GuideOne Insurance and Brotherhood Mutual Insurance Company.
I suppose if Joe Carter was all that interested in ‘truth’ doing his own research like the AP reporter did – would happen.

Honestly?  The show of true care and compassion towards victims would be along the lines of what Father Jonathan Morris stated above.  There are no denominational boundaries.  Who has MORE sexual perp’s isn’t important – hope for victims IS!  Why are we missing the big picture here?

All you have to do is read some newspapers online, and sadly stories of Pastors – or church personnel – are in there almost everyday because they have been arrested.  Something is clearly wrong with how we approach this subject, and we want to NIT PICK on how to phrase something before we address it?
Sadly, it seems ‘context’ isn’t big on the radar of individuals at the Gospel Coalition – among others ‘offended’ by this statement.
When you read what Boz had to said in context? The Evangelical Church should be ashamed of its arrogant attitude towards the Catholic Church.
The fact that Evangelical churches don’t have the same type of organizational structure as Catholics? It’s a perfectly legitimate smoke screen to use their type of structure to minimize abuse within their own ranks.
When you use ‘independence’ of churches? Distances them even further.
They are free from some the systematic and vast numbers of victims under the same umbrella. I mean you can’t ‘tie’ all the different churches together – we are all SEPARATE – so our numbers aren’t even CLOSE!
These men would make awesome politicians wouldn’t they?

Twist some differences just enough to attempt to show how they are COMPLETELY different….yet they aren’t. Yes, at this point you are supposed to drink the Kool-Aid and feel better about yourself. “We don’t have a child sexual abuse PROBLEM!”   Talk about Slandering the Bride of CHRIST!
Lets move on to some aspects SOME actually can acknowledge – while others play their ‘Christian politician game’ shall we?
Mr. Tchividjian’s comment:
The greatest failure of the church/Christian organizations when it comes to responding to abuse is institutional self-protection.  Too often Christian institutions have been willing to sacrifice the individual human soul in exchange for the protection of their own reputation.
Is so true!
Here are some other comments from a separate interview I found that we see all to often.
Why do some churches and other Christian institutions struggle with reporting suspected abuse to the civil authorities?  Regardless of the stated reasons, the common thread running through this struggle is a “fear” that is rooted in self-centeredness.  It is a “fear” of losing the “good reputation” of a ministry, it is the “fear” of losing ministry donors, it is the “fear” of losing congregation members, it is the “fear” of losing a ministry altogether, and all such “fears” are usually wrapped in a fundamental falsehood that reporting such abuse within the Christian community willdamage the cause of Christ”.[ix]  Do you see the great tragedy of this self-centered fear?  Ultimately, fear?   Ultimately, it is an attempt to rob God of his sovereignty and glory by attempting to “protect” identities and possessions.  This is in direct contravention of the Gospel.

God doesn’t need our protection, and sadly they forget the roles in that aspect are reversed.

We need HIM! The lack of faith within these churches just blows my mind. We see Job in the bible, and he had everything taken from him…WELL just about he still had God. Yes, that was all he needed. He still loved and obeyed him. In return, God gave back to him.

Seems preachers can preach about Job, but they don’t have the faith that he did. They would rather twist some scripture around, and throw people under the bus…for their ministry! I guess they feel God wouldn’t restore it.

Don’t you get that is what people are trying to point out?  You aren’t suppose throw people under the bus, and FEAR for our ministry!  Those abused people are more important to God.

Talk about lack of backbone! Churches can survive such an ordeal, and yet some don’t want to be bothered with such details.

A fundamental point that must be understood early on in this discussion is that the crime of child sexual abuse is not merely a personal offense, but rather it is an urgent public concern.  Child sexual abuse does not even fit into the paradigm of which Jesus was speaking in Matthew 18.  Jesus never intended his statements in Matthew 18 to be twisted into the required method for handling murder, rape, torture, kidnapping, or genocide.  Child sexual abuse is not a private matter but rather a public and civic one, rightly under the sword of the civil authority.  All are endangered by this crime against a little one.
There is another teaching of Jesus that regulates how child sexual abuse is to be handled procedurally.  In Romans 13, Jesus tells us through the Apostle Paul that believers are to be subject to the civil authorities.  They swing the sword as God’s ministers, bringing wrath upon evil-doers (Romans 13:1-4).  Child sexual abuse has been deemed to be criminal by the civil authorities deserving of just punishment.
The scourge of child sexual abuse is not just a sin violating the 7th Commandment in Exodus 20:14 and Matthew 5:27-30, but it is also a criminal offense in all 50 States.  It is not a matter which can be handled quietly between two persons or between two families, as was misguidedly done in Genesis 34 and in many churches today.  It is a matter of public alarm, because of its pervasive, extensive, and expansive nature, causing a cascade of misery in countless lives.  Additionally, the God-ordained civil authorities in virtually every jurisdiction mandate in some fashion that suspected child abuse be immediately reported to law enforcement. 

When Christian organizations are to busy nit picking over silly things like figures of speech?  That’s a sad state of affairs.

It seems the Gospel Coalition, and Joe Carter had their feeling hurt over a aspect of Church life that they would rather give lip service to – than acknowledge.  When they would like to be handed stats, and proof – rather than see the more important aspect of helping the hurting? 

They have lost the discernment they claim they have, and others need to use in this area. 

You see the people you whined about Joe?  They need hope – not articles about their use of the English Language.  One is certainly more important to God than the other.  People don’t need your encouragement to correct their wording when they need help either – and yet that is what you are teaching.  You are teaching others, “Ignore them!  They used one of those phrases we all know is ridiculous!’  Is that seriously the message you want to send?

You really need to go back to the basics of our faith.

Why speaking truth in love is not ‘slandering Christ’s Bride’

Where are the Voices?  The Continued Culture of Silence and Protection in American Evangelicalism

Join Boz Tchividjian on Steve Brown Etc. for a discussion of what it takes to recognize, investigate and respond to child sexual abuse in religious institutions.

Janet Mefferd on Joe Carter: Round 2--'Carter's message to Christians is SHUT UP'

Language taken literally Cartoons

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